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26Apr2012

Author:: Jonathan Lester
Category:: News
Tags:: Crytek, Pre-owned games, Retail, Used games

Developers have been coming out either in staunch support or strong opposition regarding the rumours that the next generation of consoles won't support pre-owned games. Crytek has added their voice to the debate, stating that the pre-owned block would be "absolutely awesome" - and that they're amazed the used games industry is still around.

When asked about the controversial rumours by CVG, Crytek director of creative development Rasmus Hojengaard reckoned that the anti preowned iniative would bring the games industry in line with software in general.

From a business perspective that would be absolutely awesome. It's weird that [second-hand] is still allowed because it doesn't work like that in any other software industries, so it would be great if they could somehow fix that issue as well.

It's clear that Crytek are still smarting over Crysis 2 being 2011's most pirated game - and Hojengaard had a thing or two to say about that as well.

It's very flattering and upsetting at the same time. Obviously you miss so much revenue, it's so clear that a lot of people want to play your game but they don't really want to pay for it, which is unfortunately really disappointing.

It's also a little flattering because people are willing to bother download these 10GB files or whatever the game takes because they think it looks great. We obviously want to avoid that this time, but even if we can convert 25 percent of those gamers into paying customers [you have an extra million sales].

Sadly, Hojengaard doesn't know exactly how Crytek plans to do that yet - but we reckon that CD Projekt have the right idea...

Where do you stand on the pre-owned debate? Is it a serious problem - or just a basic consumer right that publishers love to scapegoat? Let us know in the comments.

Add a comment18 comments

"amazed the used games industry is still around." Seriously, if the used games industry wasn't around, there wouldn't be nearly as many gamers. I know people who only buy used games as new games just aren't worth the extra cash if you don't care about the latest multiplayer FPS.

Also Crytek shouldn't be allowed to discuss games, both Farcry and Cysis were abysmal. People only pirated it to benchmark their machines ffs!

"both Farcry and Cysis were abysmal." LOL
PC gamers (ala Steam) are getting used to not being able to sell games. Why not exend it to consoles?

My suggestion, for what it's worth is two fold. 1.) get rid of your stupidly high prices for games. £39.99 or even £49.99 is too high for a release price. Why do you think the used game market exists???? For a large portion of the market, it's the only way to get access to the game. Up to £30 is reasonable and I'm certain more people will pick up the game at that price at launch.

Secondly, I remember years back when companies were proud to offer free demo's of their games on PC and console. These demo's allowed gamers to see what the game was like before shelling out the hard earned cash. Just looking at the Demo's on Steam right I dont see any demo's of Modern Warfare 3, Battlefield 3, Syndicate, Need for Speed ( any of them), F1, Dirt, or actually anything worth trying. Any you wonder why the game is pirated? People simply do not have a way to try before they buy. And the cost to buy is too high on release.

On top of this don't get me started on the number of bugs left in games. EA seem to be the worst at this but they're not the only ones.

Also studios seem to focus more and more on multiplayer. The simple reason is that they can reduce campaign development and dont need to work on stories etc.

Finally the DLC debate, the number of times a game is realeased, but then you are drip fed the rest of the game in paid for DLC.)

RANT OVER

"both Farcry and Cysis were abysmal." LOL
PC gamers (ala Steam) are getting used to not being able to sell games. Why not exend it to consoles?

Wrong, buy the game in retail, add the key to steam. Sell the DVD on ebay or CEX.

It's amazing to me that the gaming industry is considering this. Sure, they may think they're missing out on cash sales - but to kill the 2nd hand market will be a blow to people who don't have the money to spend on a gaming hobby that requires top prices.

The 2nd hand market exists for a reason and if they (the gaming industry) kill it, they're alienating part of their audience. The amount of times I've bought 2nd-hand software/hardware titles due to limited budget was a key factor. And I'm sure it can be for others.
I want to get Red Dead Redemption because, I got an Xbox recently and being a PC gamer, missed out on this Rockstar title. Brand new, it still commands a fairly high price. 2nd hand, not so bad a price. If the 2nd hand side of things wasn't there, my only choice would be either a) miss out or b) play a friend's copy at their place.

If the gaming industry are so concerned about losses, they should tap into the 2nd hand market for themeselves. However, that said, I still find it funny that the games industry is alone in stamping out 2nd hand sales of their products. As someone else said, the record industry, film industry (DVD/Blurays), car industry, toy industry, etc., all have 2nd hand sales of their products. What makes a game any different? I asked my friend and he replied, "because they can do what they want". And you know what? He's right.

We've seen this before in the form of certain DRM titles on the PC. Ubisoft being a notable example. But these kind of preventions and technologies that they want to develop, in order to block 2nd-hand/pirated games, will surely be overridden anyway. People will always find a way to get something. This blocking of 2nd hand titles will be no different.

Find another solution or consider losing certain parts of your gaming market. Simple as that.

Wrong, buy the game in retail, add the key to steam. Sell the DVD on ebay or CEX.

I guess these DVDs would make useful coasters.

"both Farcry and Cysis were abysmal." LOL
PC gamers (ala Steam) are getting used to not being able to sell games. Why not exend it to consoles?

I'm a steam user and love having it all in one place with a nice community. That's my main reason for having it. But to answer the question of extending this to consoles, here's the point.

There hasn't been a 2nd hand market for PC games for a very long time, now. Whereas, for consoles, the last 20 years has been rather good in this area. If there had been a 2nd hand PC market, I'm sure, I'd be checking stuff out and buying stuff up.
When I recently moved, I found that I still had oodles of PC games that weren't tied to any online accounts, so I can do what I want with them. But we're talking 1998-2001 titles, mainly. But I digress, the consoles DO have a 2nd market and it's a popular choice for many people. It's just a different world for PC, I'm afraid. At least Steam/Valve treat their PC audience well!

I should probably point out that Episode 8 of the PWNcast makes our position on the matter very clear.

There's nothing wrong with pre-owned games IMO. Rather, the onus is on publishers and developers to ensure that new games are good enough to warrant the RRP, and treat their player base with enough respect to make us want to buy at launch in order to support them. Killing pre-owned games at source isn't going to somehow make a bad game worth £39.99 - and could even entice some disgruntled consumers into piracy who'd never otherwise consider it.

Should the anti-used game system come into effect, I'd like to see publishers being much more flexible with RRP - reducing it if the game isn't actually worth forty quid. But without the used game market to compete with, will they bother doing so?

Last edited by JonLester, Apr. 26, 2012 at 18:32

Here we go again, every other industry has a secondhand market and they survive. Let's take some of the areas and have a look.

The car industry - a new car costs £10,000 and the manufacturer makes their money back on the initial sale.
The music industry - the artists do live performances and make a hell of a lot of money from the £40 ticket price and make their money back from the that and the fewer new cd sales.
The film industry - the film is released at the cinema where a ticket costs £8 per person then followed up by a DVD release so the studio makes their money back.

Now let's have a look at the game industry, a game is released and half the people buy secondhand and a quarter pirate it and the developers do not make their money back so they release dlc to try and get some of the cash back or focus on the multi player so that fewer copies are traded in and so they can sell you more maps to try and make their money back.

My figures are totally plucked out of the air but I'm trying to make the point that the games industry has very few avenues to try and recoup the cost of production and the only people who want to see the secondhand market continue are the people who want to save £3 or £4 on a new release title.

That is another thing I would like to know, how much do you lot pay for a used game? The ones I have seen in game are only like £3 to £5 cheaper so what is the point of getting a used copy?

without second hand games, the prices would start to fall for new games.

the only reason they are so high is because companys need to make as much money as possible withing the first few weeks of launching a game because as soon as people start trading them in then others can buy the game second hand and the developer companys dont get any money from that at all.

this is also why PC games are in most cases £10 - £15 cheaper than consol versions, as theres no worry of having to get as much sales in before people start trading the game in because you cant do this on PC.

a good example is you could pre order skyrim for PC before it was out for only £17 from some retailers.

...this is also why PC games are in most cases £10 - £15 cheaper than consol versions...

That and the licence fee that every publisher has to pay to the manufacturer if they wish to release a game on their console....

Last edited by hippidyhip, Apr. 26, 2012 at 20:03

Just looking at the Demo's on Steam right I dont see any demo's of Modern Warfare 3

You do realise the MW3 multiplayer demo is live RIGHT NOW, right?

CDs and DVDs aren't tied to one owner.

Why should games be? They're just another mass market piece of media entertainment. Plenty of games outlive their usefulness once they're done, e.g. Alan Wake. What are we supposed to do? Keep it forever, hording it uselessly? Bin it and add to the landfill? Or help the retail industry to thrive by trading or selling it, and passing it on?

The argument that games don't make their money back is nonsense. Games gross more than movies, and cost more to own.

Now let's have a look at the game industry, a game is released and half the people buy secondhand

Eh? As opposed to the car and housing market where no-one ever buys second hand?

Why does the games market think that it is special and deserves special powers enabling it to prevent people taking ownership of their property?

Every second hand game sold has been bought 1st hand at some point - and the first person selling it is doubtless going to re-invest their money buying another new game.

Stop him doing that and you're going to see a decrease in new game sales, not an increase.

If it comes down to it I'd only buy whichever next gen console supports used games.

Here we go again, every other industry has a secondhand market and they survive. Let's take some of the areas and have a look.

The car industry - a new car costs £10,000 and the manufacturer makes their money back on the initial sale.
The music industry - the artists do live performances and make a hell of a lot of money from the £40 ticket price and make their money back from the that and the fewer new cd sales.
The film industry - the film is released at the cinema where a ticket costs £8 per person then followed up by a DVD release so the studio makes their money back.

Now let's have a look at the game industry, a game is released and half the people buy secondhand and a quarter pirate it and the developers do not make their money back so they release dlc to try and get some of the cash back or focus on the multi player so that fewer copies are traded in and so they can sell you more maps to try and make their money back.

My figures are totally plucked out of the air but I'm trying to make the point that the games industry has very few avenues to try and recoup the cost of production and the only people who want to see the secondhand market continue are the people who want to save £3 or £4 on a new release title.

That is another thing I would like to know, how much do you lot pay for a used game? The ones I have seen in game are only like £3 to £5 cheaper so what is the point of getting a used copy?

Wow you've definately been looking in the wrong places for your used games. Ok at launch, the prices are very similar but after a few weeks, while the new ones are still selling around the £40 mark, you can often find second hand ones around half that price.

Also, bear in mind, that seeing as I may like the game and also end up buying the DLC the developer still gets more money from me. If I had to pay £40+ for a game I simply wouldn't buy it.

My final thought, if the second hand games market disappears, then what will drive the price of games down? Aren't they likely to stay floating at £30 or £40+ indefinitely. After all, that's the only way people can buy it.

[quote]Here we go again, every other industry has a secondhand market and they survive. Let's take some of the areas and have a look.

The car industry - a new car costs £10,000 and the manufacturer makes their money back on the initial sale. 
The music industry - the artists do live performances and make a hell of a lot of money from the £40 ticket price and make their money back from the that and the fewer new cd sales. 
The film industry - the film is released at the cinema where a ticket costs £8 per person then followed up by a DVD release so the studio makes their money back.

Now let's have a look at the game industry, a game is released and half the people buy secondhand and a quarter pirate it and the developers do not make their money back so they release dlc to try and get some of the cash back or focus on the multi player so that fewer copies are traded in and so they can sell you more maps to try and make their money back.

My figures are totally plucked out of the air but I'm trying to make the point that the games industry has very few avenues to try and recoup the cost of production and the only people who want to see the secondhand market continue are the people who want to save £3 or £4 on a new release title.

That is another thing I would like to know, how much do you lot pay for a used game? The ones I have seen in game are only like £3 to £5 cheaper so what is the point of getting a used copy?[/quote]

Wow you've definately been looking in the wrong places for your used games. Ok at launch, the prices are very similar but after a few weeks, while the new ones are still selling around the £40 mark, you can often find second hand ones around half that price.

Also, bear in mind, that seeing as I may like the game and also end up buying the DLC the developer still gets more money from me. If I had to pay £40+ for a game I simply wouldn't buy it.

My final thought, if the second hand games market disappears, then what will drive the price of games down? Aren't they likely to stay floating at £30 or £40+ indefinitely. After all, that's the only way people can buy it.

CDs and DVDs aren't tied to one owner.

Argggg don't give them ideas. It won't be long before we have to go online to unlock dvds/cds.

Plus digital media like itunes downloads and stuff are not resellable so it's already starting to happen elsewhere. I do not believe this is a good thing!!

Last edited by Doors, Apr. 27, 2012 at 11:08

@CovertRecon

Not every game is a modern warfare behemoth that rakes in billions, there are so many great games that do not make the money that they should. Let's take Alan Wake as an example, relatively poor sales on 360 that get a boost by 2 DLC packs and then a release on steam which makes back the development costs within a week but on 360 we are offered a downloadable only sequel because retail sales suck if you don't have multiplayer tacked on. Plus do you really think the retail industry is thriving? Does game/gamestation exist in a different reality to you?

@mrzootsuit

My point is that in the car and housing market the manufacturer has already made their money back on the first hand sales so don't care about the resale market the games market is different because at the moment they aren't making the money back on the first hand sales so they have to generate more income by cutting bits out of the games and then selling them back to us.

I think project $10 is a great idea and I hope more companies start using similar tactics. It doesn't impact on me as I already buy games new so I get the full experience right from the start but the people who buy secondhand still have to support the developers if they want the full product.

@sparx1981

For starters I havent been looking for used games as it just doesn't make sense, after a few weeks you can get a brand new copy off the Internet at half the price so why bother getting a secondhand copy! Dead Space 2 was available for £20 a couple of weeks after launch.

Let's just have a look at one page on games website and see what massive savings you can get:

Battlefield 3: New £24.99 Used £24.99
Saints row the third: New £22.99 Used £20.99
Halo anniversary: New £24.99 Used £24.99

The list goes on and the thing that drives down prices is new games being released not the secondhand market. You aren't going to buy shooter 2012 for £40 when shooter 2013 just released so the price drops.

The problem with people these days is that they want everything NOW. So let's buy a "cheap" used copy or stick it on the credit card because that is the done thing these days, sod getting into mountains of dept we can just get that written off in a few years when we can't afford to live (the getting into dept comment isn't aimed at you sparx1981 or anyone in this thread, I have no idea about how you live your life I am just spouting off about the state of the country).

Anyway I'm off to play a new copy of Alice: madness returns - which came with a free game if you bought it new

@CovertRecon

Not every game is a modern warfare behemoth that rakes in billions, there are so many great games that do not make the money that they should. Let's take Alan Wake as an example, relatively poor sales on 360 that get a boost by 2 DLC packs and then a release on steam which makes back the development costs within a week but on 360 we are offered a downloadable only sequel because retail sales suck if you don't have multiplayer tacked on. Plus do you really think the retail industry is thriving? Does game/gamestation exist in a different reality to you?

@mrzootsuit

My point is that in the car and housing market the manufacturer has already made their money back on the first hand sales so don't care about the resale market the games market is different because at the moment they aren't making the money back on the first hand sales so they have to generate more income by cutting bits out of the games and then selling them back to us.

I think project $10 is a great idea and I hope more companies start using similar tactics. It doesn't impact on me as I already buy games new so I get the full experience right from the start but the people who buy secondhand still have to support the developers if they want the full product.

@sparx1981

For starters I havent been looking for used games as it just doesn't make sense, after a few weeks you can get a brand new copy off the Internet at half the price so why bother getting a secondhand copy! Dead Space 2 was available for £20 a couple of weeks after launch.

Let's just have a look at one page on games website and see what massive savings you can get:

Battlefield 3: New £24.99 Used £24.99
Saints row the third: New £22.99 Used £20.99
Halo anniversary: New £24.99 Used £24.99

The list goes on and the thing that drives down prices is new games being released not the secondhand market. You aren't going to buy shooter 2012 for £40 when shooter 2013 just released so the price drops.

The problem with people these days is that they want everything NOW. So let's buy a "cheap" used copy or stick it on the credit card because that is the done thing these days, sod getting into mountains of dept we can just get that written off in a few years when we can't afford to live (the getting into dept comment isn't aimed at you sparx1981 or anyone in this thread, I have no idea about how you live your life I am just spouting off about the state of the country).

Anyway I'm off to play a new copy of Alice: madness returns - which came with a free game if you bought it new :)

@NostromoXP

You've missed the point.

If in any other market a manufacturer was selling a product that did not recoup it's cost then the choice is between decreasing the cost, increasing the price or selling supplementary items at a profit.

They wouldn't punish the owner by preventing him from taking ownership of his property.

If you tried to sell me a house and told me I couldn't sell it ever again I wouldn't buy your house.

Same with games.

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